The American Dissident: Literature, Democracy & Dissidence
Academy of American Poets—Transcript of Two Acts of Censorship
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
—Larina Larwar, Censoring Moderator of the Academy of American Poets
Feel free to politely continue the discussion.
—Christine Klocek-Lim, Censoring Site Manager of the Academy of American Poets
Politeness, n. The most acceptable hypocrisy.
—Ambrose Bierce
It does matter that people have the right to take an argument to the point where somebody is offended by what they say. It's no trick to support the free speech of somebody you agree with or to whose opinion you are indifferent. The defense of free speech begins at the point when people say something you can't stand. If you can't defend their right to say it, then you don't believe in free speech. You believe in free speech only as long as it doesn't get up your nose. But free speech does get up people's noses.
—Salman Rushdie
Below, in red letters, are the precise moments where it was decided that all my entries be eliminated as if they had never been made, as if I simply didn't exist as a critic. Notice how Simon Perchik responds to praise, but ignores my critique entirely. The following transcript has not been altered in any way whatsoever. Fortunately, I copied it prior to the two acts of censorship.
Moderator Larina Larwar: Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: July/August 2007: Guest Member - Simon Perchik
Over the last couple months, I've had the great pleasure of conversing with Simon Perchik through email. As a poet, Simon's work is often filled with contradictory images and ideas. It is difficult poetry--poetry that requires the reader to look beyond themselves for answers. As a person, Simon is a terrific conversationalist--one of those people that really hears what you say. I asked Simon if he would be willing to make an appearance here at poets.org and much to my surprise, he agreed. Without further ado, here are his materials:
Bio: Simon Perchik is an attorney whose poems have appeared in Partisan Review, The New Yorker, and elsewhere. Family of Man (Pavement Saw Press) and Rafts (Parsifal Editions) are both scheduled for publication 2007. For more information, including his essay “Magic, Illusion and Other Realities” and a complete bibliography, please visit his website at www.geocities.com/simonthepoet.
Poems of which he says "They are of course no [sic] only my favorites, but my best. (It has to be that way, else I couldn't go on.)
*
Even the colors are anxious, carried
as if its new home above ground
would skimp the way all rows use dirt
cut in two with nothing in between
–you suddenly bring it a darkness
use one hand to comfort the other
though you’ve done all this before
have no faith in mornings :clumps
that want only to forget, just lie still
holding one end close, for a long time
sorted out and unfamiliar fields
taken place to place in flowers
in ribbons, string, thread, something
feeble, tied to the dissolving Earth
by this shadow and your arms.
*
As if the paint poured across
could stave off rot, circle down
though this gate heads back
once it leaves your arms –by itself
whitening the trees already stone
certain you will come here forever
bring twigs, let them sweeten
soften on the ground you bite into
struggling to float, unable to breathe
or unfasten her skirt –your mouth
oozing the way mornings arrive
to dry, kept moist by these dead
and berries dressed as roots and grass
surrounded, filled with the taste
from her eyelids not yet flowers.
*
This rotted log yes and no
longs for the stillness
that is not wood though you
are already inside, seated
at a table, a lamp, clinging
the way all light arrives alone
except for the enormous jaws
once shoreline closing in
without water or suddenness
–you lay down a small thing
and the Earth is surrounded, fed
slowly forehead to forehead again.
*
You reach for lullabies, left over
and the slow crawl half whispers
half where your lips ache, float
the way this empty cup still wobbles
will break apart, overloaded
disguised as two steps closer and alone
then fill your arms with its darkness
seeping through, breathing out
not yet an embrace, not yet the mouth
where your fingers end, surrounded
by more and more dirt, a small room
here, there, there, not yet asleep.
*
It’s never dry –another gust
though this elevator is carried
the way you count backward
for hours and the door flies open
lets in a sea half hillside
half rising through the floor
–you walk in to sleep, begin
with the sound sand makes
when scattered for footprints
still following the silence
between 10, then 0, pressed
against your face –tides
are used to this, start out
to forgive, then lay down
as emptiness and a home.
*
Though it gets dark earlier and earlier
you were already weakened at birth
–without a shrug let go things
the way each grave is graced
used to being slowly moved along
blossom and in your mouth
a somewhat pebble half fruit
half sweetened, not yet
broken apart in your throat
–you can’t make out where in the turn
you are clinging to its path
that led you here, not yet strong enough
or longing for some riverside or rain
or the night by night, warm
still falling off your hands.
A Brief Word of Advice to Beginners
Read everything that's out there. You can't write anything original if you don't know what's been done already. And, as a beginner, if you are hopelessly lost, you could do worse than write your poems the way I write mine. For that you have to read "Magic, Illusion and Other Realities."
On Poetics
an excerpt from "Magic, Illusion, and Other Realities"
Where do writers get their ideas? Well, if they are writing prose, their ideas evolve one way. If, on the other hand, they are writing poetry, their ideas evolve another way. Perhaps some distinctions are in order. Distinguishing the difference between prose and poetry may not be all that simple; there are many definitions, all of which may be correct. For the purpose of this essay allow me to set forth one of the many:
It seems to me that there is available to writers a spectrum along which to proceed. At one end is prose, appropriate for essays, news, weather reports and the like. At the other end is poetry. Writers moves back and forth along this spectrum when writing fiction.
Thus, prose is defined by its precise meaning that excludes ambiguity, surmise and misunderstanding. It never troubles the reader. To define it another way, prose is faulty if it lacks a coherent thrust guided by rules of logic, grammar and syntax. It will not tolerate contradiction. Poetry, on the other hand, is defined by its resistance to such rules. Poetry is ignited, brought to life by haunting, evasive, ambiguous, contradictory propositions.
This is not to say poetry is more or less useful than prose. Rather, they are two separate and distinct tools, much the same as a hammer and a saw. They are different tools designed for different jobs. If an essay is called for, the reader wants certainty; exactly what the words you are now reading are intended to give. If, on the other hand, consolation for some great loss is called for, the reader needs more: a text that lights up fields of reference nowhere alluded to on the page. This calls for magic, for illusion, not lecture. To be made whole the reader needs to undergo an improved change in mood, a change made more effective if the reader doesn't know why he or she feels better. Exactly like music. That's where poetry gets its power to repair; an invisible touch, ghost-like but as real as anything on earth. A reading of the masters, Neruda, Aleixandre, Celan...confirms that a text need not always have a meaning the reader can explicate. To that extent, it informs , as does music, without what we call meaning. It's just that it takes prose to tell you this.
Read the rest here.
Simon is very interested in conversation about this essay. Whether you agree or disagree, I encourage you to post your thoughts about it here. There are several interviews also available on his web site that are of interest. The Baratier interview is my personal favorite because it discusses Simon's rather unusual creative process. Simon also sent me an interview on DVD in which he discusses his process and the viewer is given a treat--to hear the poem read after seeing the photograph that inspired it. I tried to get this interview up on my web site, but was unfortunately unable to do so. If you are interested in viewing it, I have obtained permission from Simon to make copies of the DVD and would be happy to mail a copy to you. Just send me a private message with a mailing address.
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Moderator Larina Larwar: Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:
Simon, I've read your essay a few times now and one thing sort of bothers me about this idea that poetry and prose are two distinctly separate tools and that poetry is more apt toward the subconscious. I've read a number of "experimental" memoirs, short stories, and even novels, that eschew concrete detail for the purpose of making the reader dive into their subconscious and come up with their own interpretations, answers, or questions. I think we've all read poetry that utilizes primarily a narrative technique and in contemporary poetry, we as poets are told that concrete details are an absolute necessity. How do you view this discrepancy in the idea that prose tells more than poetry? Put another way: How do you view the idea that poetry should tell as much as prose does in fewer words?
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Simon Perchik. Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:36 pm Post subject:
Larina, This is my first attempt to "work" this site so forgive me if all does not go well. I don't have the text to your question in front of me so I may not respond to all you asked. If that turns out the case send on another note and I'll try again.The response (am sure it's not an answer, just a response) is that words have more power if they inform without lecturing the reader. No matter how stunning the language you short change the readers if you spell out everything and leave nothing for them to put together. The power of poetry, it seems to me, comes from its ablilty to create thoughts in the reader that are nowhere expressed on the page. Hope that makes sense. Let me know. Best, Si.
Moderator Larina Larwar: Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:01 pm Post subject:
You did a fine job answering my question without the text in front of you, Si. In the future, though, you can use your scroll bar to see the last message on the thread in full. It's just below the view of the screen. 
I think I have to draw some kind of line between lecturing and enlightening (boy does that sound pretentious!). I think there's value in spelling something out for the reader sometimes because they are coming at it from a different perspective and part of our job as poets (or writers of any sort) is to help someone look at something a little differently than they normally would. At the same time, I think the use of symbolism and metaphor is vastly under-used in contemporary poetry. I see comments sometimes wondering why, for example, a poem about Japan utilizes a lotus flower. I'd like to see readers looking more closely at poetry and trying to see those things that exist under the surface of the text. I'm not convinced, though, that some prose does not work in the same way.
Now see...I suckered you in here just so I could argue with you. 
All my best,
~Larina
Papaya. Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject:
Hello Simon,
The poems that you chose for this forum seem to me to have a very jazz-like, syncopated rhythm, with a sort of music-colour synthesia: is that intentional on your part or one of those things that happen to good poetry when it's let loose on the world? I ask this, because I've just finished reading your 1999 interview in Jacket magazine where you said that your opening lines are Beethoven chords--several years down the road is that still the case or do you draw your influences elsewhere these days? And--a completely different question--how do you KNOW when a poem is ready--do you have a sounding board or do you go by your own instinct completely?
Papaya
Simon Perchik. Posted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject:
Papaya, Thanks so very much for writing. Am flattered that you read the Baratier interview and that you remembered it. Your questions are very insightful . First, Yes, the rhythms are intentional. I even use the "misplaced" colon to create (in addition to a metaphor) a jolting rhythm: an impact rather than a braking effect. The Beethoven chords are for the rhythm but I steal his music for its surpises too. And yes, I still steal from him. As for when do I know if a poem is finished? The same way a parent knows when a teenage child is ready to go it alone; When both are sick of eachother. Hope I answered your questions If not, or if my answers raised other questions , let me know and we'll take it from there. Again, thanks for writing. Si.
Papaya. Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 5:13 pm Post subject:
Hello Simon,
Thanks very much, yes, you did answer my questions.
I've been thinking about your essay "Magic, Illusion and Other Realities" and the difference between prose and poetry. Would I be correct in saying that by prose you mean factual or journalistic writing, writing which by definition cannot be ambiguous in its meaning? But what about fiction? That's prose too, isn't it? James Joyce, Salman Rushdie, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, Lawrence Durrell--their writing is poetic, but it isn't poetry. The way I see it, the basic difference is that poetry is music made up just of words. If there's a melody to it, it's poetry, if there isn't, then no matter how magical or poetical, it's prose. Or is that too simplistic?
Looking forward to hearing your take on it--and thanks again for being here and taking the time to answer questions like mine 
Papaya
Ike Vallon. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:18 am Post subject: Poetry, Prose and Simon Perchik
These representative poems, Mr. Perchik, are poetic gems! They are haunting, mysterious, mystical and powerful. Although there are those who attempt to blur the distinction between poetry and prose, I have no trouble distinguishing between the two; yours is poetry at its best. Before the advent of free and blank verse, it was easy to distinguish between poetry and prose: the latter had rhyme and meter, and each was pretty strictly defined by rules; prose did not. With the advent of free verse, the task became more difficult. Nevertheless, your poetry, Mr. Perchik, surely reveals the difference. Poetry is essentially a rhythmic stream of images, metaphors and similes. Unlike prose, its principal purpose is not to "tell a story", nor to "develop a character". Poetry eschews character development and plot, as such. It is more an "impression" and a "feeling" conveyed by the use of words in a "magical" sense, through rhythm and imagery. Your poetry is powerful, lyrical, mystical and abstract, causing a cascade of emotions in the reader, whatever your conscious intent may (or may not) have been, which leaves the reader emotionally impacted, perhaps in ways the reader understands, but perhaps without an identifiable understanding. No matter. It reaches into the reader's soul or unconscious, and hits a "nerve". Something in the reader is changed by the poem, whether known or unknown. But one thing is sure, such wonderful poetry as yours, Mr. Perchik, has power, beauty and affects the deepest recesses of our being. That is what makes your poetry great.
Joel Chace. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:48 pm Post subject:
Si:
So glad you are doing this. You know that I have been a huge fan for many years!
Have been reading your "Milton Poems" recently, and--as always--admire
your writing.
To what extent, if any, do you feel directed by Zukovsky & Oppen?--poem
as thing, material, as sound, as music? And by Reznikoff--poem as testimony/testament?
All Best,
Joel Chace
Simon Perchik. Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject:
Joel, Good to hear from you. Been a long time. And thanks for the kind words about the Milton Poems. Milton, incidentally, was a photographer who was also the editor of the South Dakota Review. I used his photographs to generate the poems. About Zukovsky and Oppen, I not sure about their work. A poet named Mike Heller is the expert. But I do have a strong opinion of Charles Reznikoff. I think he is America's best poet. Now, listen to this: a few months back when I was inteviewed by the Univ. of Kentucky Law Review the name Reznikoff came up (he was a lawyer). Then Mitchell McInnis <tzutjan@yahoo.com> writes about my take of Reznikoff. Now, you. I hope this portends a revival of his poetry. He shouldn't have to wait 400 years like Blake. I hope our discourse here encourages others to read Reznikoff. Again, thanks for writing. And please stay in touch. Si.
Enmarge [i.e., G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:37 am Post subject: Perchik Poem
The poem is tedious, unoriginal, and utterly lacking in RISK. It is the kind of poem no doubt favored by established-order literati and organizations. American poetry will simply get worse and worse and more and more conformist and herd-like if the established-order continues to keep its doors hermetically sealed to outside criticism and poetry that risks, risks the very ire of established-order literati. The backslapping, self-congratulating, and icon creating and worshipping must STOP! The absolute lack of questioning and challenging in the milieu must STOP! How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month? How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)?
For an alternative to Perchik's tediously bland essay, try http://www.theamericandissident.org/ColdPassion.htm.
Best,
G. Tod Slone, Editor
The American Dissident, a journal of critical writing
www.theamericandissident.org
Moderator Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:59 am Post subject:
To answer your question, G. Tod:
Forum Moderators:
Christine (chrissiekl) —SiteAdmin
Gary (G.Wilkens) — Poetry Criticism & Reviews, On Writing & Craft, Poem Sparks, Publishing, MFA Programs, Poetry 401
Diana (dmanister) — Poetry Criticism & Reviews
Stephen (sbunch) — Poetry 301
Catherine (rogersc) — Poetry 201
Larina (Larwar) — Poetry 201, Poem Sparks
Dave (hatrabbit) — Poetry 101
Cynthia (CynN) — Roving
Linz (girlypoet) — Roving
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Hatrabbit Dave Rowley. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:
enmarge, [i.e., G. Tod Slone]
'The backslapping, self-congratulating, and icon creating and worshipping must STOP! The absolute lack of questioning and challenging in the milieu must STOP! How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month? How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)? '
Thanks for telling us what to think and do.
Honestly, nothing in your comments signals to me that you gave any thought to reading the poem or the essay. Your criticisms are sweeping and really serve only as a platform to spruik your potted message of dissent.
Dissent for dissent's sake is just as blind as 'herd-conformity', and stinks of self-righteousness to boot.
Simon demonstrated a willingness to discuss his essay and poetry, why don't you risk something and give some thought in your critique of his work instead of cutting and pasting from your manifesto.
Dave
_______________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Enmarge. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: A sad response to hard critique...
What a sad response, oh educated Moderators! Well, I give you credit for not going anonymous...
Enmarge. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:44 am Post subject: Ah, the politician's poet!
Dave,
What a wonderful politician's non-response to my questions. Let's hope for democracy's sake that you're not teaching college. Allow me to pose those questions again. Maybe you'll come up with another politician's non-response. "How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month? How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)?"
www.theamericandissident.org
……………………………………………………………………………………………………
Email received from Site Manager Christine Klocek-Lim.
enmarge,
Apparently you haven't read our Posting & Conduct Guidelines. Therefore, let me enlighten you: if you continue to post inflammatory statements which essentially amount to advertising for your website, your posts will be deleted. From the Guidelines:
# Do not post spam or advertisements. Site admin and moderators will remove these posts immediately.
# Do not post offensive material. Avoid language or statements that can be considered pornographic, racist, threatening, inflammatory, hateful, insulting, or violent. While we value freedom of expression, we also value the comfort and sanctity of this space for everyone. We expect that certain topics may lead to contention and debate, and will not prevent users from expressing their opinions, as long as they can be articulated and debated in a rational, calm, and informed manner.
# Show respect for the Poets.org community. Do not bait or flame your fellow users, or engage in personal attacks.
If you would like to engage in discussion regarding poetry, poets, and poetics, please do so in the Just Conversation section of the forum.
_________________
—Christine, Site Admin—
CENSORED
At this precise point, I went to post my response to the evocation of the RULES, but my entries were removed as were any comments referring to them... and I was not permitted to post any more.
From: Chrissiekl
To: Enmarge
Date: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:26 pm
Subj: Moved posts
You posts regarding Perchik's poem have been moved to the Just Conversation section (two posts got lost in the shuffle, unfortunately):
http://www.poets.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12111
Feel free to politely continue the discussion.
_______________
—Christine, Site Admin—
From: enmarge
To: Chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:48 pm
Subj: moved posts
So not just a censor now, but also a liar?! Got "lost," huh? What a sad joke. You owe me an apology! I am currently looking into the legalities of your arbitrary action of censorship with my regard as an American citizen. I want those posts in proper position and my last post also posted in proper position NOW… the one critical of your Guidelines. You should know better that as a nonprofit org you are legally required to hold open forums, open to all citizens including critical ones like me. The American Dissident is also a non profit org, but unlike you and the Academy, it does not fear criticism. You have left me fully disgusted.
G. Tod Slone, Editor
The American Dissident
www.theamericandissident.org
Moderator Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:50 am Post subject:
I will answer your questions directly:
"How many poets, created by the established-order machine, actually possess the individuality (as opposed to herd-conformity) to pose the simple question: who were the judges who anointed Perchik Poetaster of the Month?
Me, and all the folks who planned it and put it together. Also, all the folks who have read the "Member of the Month & Guest Poet Guidelines":
http://poets.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11850
"The Guest Member will be chosen by their overall contribution to poetry and what they have to offer this forum. We will not be looking specifically at "Internet poets," but rather at poets, wherever they might come from, that have something to offer in the way of learning about some aspect of poetry. These folks may or may not actively contribute to conversations throughout their term. The important thing is that they provide a starting point for critical conversation. This section is still under development and may not start precisely at the same time as the "Member of the Month" section. Members who believe a particular person might be a good fit for this should send their recommendation, as well as contact information, to Larina (Larwar – larina76@msn.com) or Christine (chrissiekl)."
How many poets, created by that machine, actually let their lives "be a counterfriction to stop the machine" (Thoreau) and dare "go upright and vital, and speak the rude truth in all ways" (Emerson)?"
This is hard to answer, because
1) it's not really a question, it's an ideologiocal statemtent in the form of a question.
2) it's made up of quotes
3) none of its terms are defined
But, here's at least one 
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Emurer. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:51 am Post subject:
I had The American Dissident from my list of possible rags to submit to, but I guess I can scratch it.
Esther
Moderator Larwar. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject:
emurer wrote: “I had The American Dissident from my list of possible rags to submit to, but I guess I can scratch it.”
Ditto.
_________________
~Larina
Learn the rules. Then learn how to break them.
Moderator Hatrabbit Dave Rowley. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject:
enmarge,
Or maybe, the Academy ought to simply stifle my voice, censor me out of existence! Wouldn't that be so much better?
That won't happen. The Academy merely hosts this site for people who are interested in writing, critiquing, discussing poetry. They couldn't be bothered checking in to stifle any debates that don't fit their agenda. That's not how they operate despite your imaginings. You'll be happy to know that I don't teach at any college, one reason being that I don't have a college degree. If you've set this site up as some great political monster that you need to save the rest of civilisation from, then you've made a big mistake. I'd say most of the thousands of members here are not teaching poetry in colleges or anywhere else. This is not part of the machine.
As to my previous response not addressing your points adequately, that was because you didn't really make any. All you did was acknowledge a poem and an essay had been written, dismiss both, then spew your ideology all over our forum. Say something that shows you're actually engaging with anything on this site and I'd be happy to respond to it.
I can't believe you charged someone with not taking a risk and then followed that up by hiding behind the words of two other men. That's being political--building a strawman then taking pot-shots while hiding behind a poorly thought through ideology.
Give us a break.
_________________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Enmarge. [G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:58 pm Post subject:
You all sadly need a lesson in the first amendment and the illegality of speech codes! Here is my response to your Speech Code, the one the moderator said she lost. In any case, I was immediately censored from the forum, all my postings removed. The following letter evidently shook up the Poet Censor (s). Read clearly, for you might learn something. Maybe Perchik will learn something, since he doesn't seem to give a damn!
Censored (Lost!) Posting:
It is utterly astonishing to me that the Academy of American Poets would THREATEN to censor my discourse because it is not sufficiently happy-face, backslapping, and congratulatory! What a great way to THREATEN to censor a poet who thinks differently from the Academy poet herd by claiming he is not abiding by the RULES of CONDUCT. I suppose Ginsberg, one of your Beatnik members, approved those “Conduct Guidelines”? I have not used four-letter words. Hell, think of all of the ones he used! I am not posting Spam or Advertisements. He was a virtual walking advertisement. The term “OFFENSIVE MATERIAL” is entirely subjective and a most SHAMEFUL way for intelligent people to censor and kill VIGOROUS DEBATE! Doesn’t being a member of a child-pedophilia organization constitute “offensive”? Wasn’t Ginsberg a member of such an organization? I have not threatened anybody at all. “INFLAMMATORY, HATEFUL, INSULTING” are but more subjective terms, easily evoked to kill vigorous HEALTHY debate. “While we value freedom of expression, we also value the comfort and sanctity of this space for everyone.” Well, the space is no longer very comfortable to me! Will any Academy poets come to my defense, come to the defense of free speech and expression, and valid critique, cornerstone of democracy? “RATIONAL, CALM, AND INFORMED MANNER” are more such subjective terms. It is incredible to me that educated poets could have enacted such “Conduct Guidelines,” which echo uncannily the very speech-code guidelines enacted by far too many universities… to suppress free speech and vigorous debate. By the way, legal decision after decision have struck down those codes. Please, before you censor me for the simple reason that I have failed to be indoctrinated as a friendly poet in implicit conformity with our nation’s politically-correct happy-face fascistic mentality, EXAMINE THE FOLLOWING QUOTE issued by constitutional lawyer Greg Lukianof, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education: “Civility is a very important value, but discussions of civility in the university setting are sadly too often code for wanting to shut down discussions that may offend students or administrators. It would be a great service to students if it was explained to them when they begin college that, although politeness may be nice, it is of miniscule importance as compared to robust discussion. As we often joke, being offended is what happens when you have your deepest beliefs challenged, and if you make it through college without being offended, you should ask for your money back. On a serious note, a look at the U.S. Supreme Court's First Amendment jurisprudence will demonstrate that the government cannot require civil speech or mandate conventions of decency (take a look at Cohen v. California or Papish v. Board of Curators of the University of Missouri , to name just a few). That being said, colleges and universities can *encourage* students to dialogue civilly; they simply cannot *require* it.”
Moderator Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:09 pm Post subject:
"Wasn’t Ginsberg a member of such an organization?"
But he was never a member of our Board of Chancellors, so whatever argument you're trying to make has no legs.
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in terms of human purposes and values. ”
—Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Enmarge [G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject: Established-Order Poets love to censor dissident poets...
Yes, I have been censored from the Perchik page! Isn't that wonderful! Now, ole Perchie can only be exposed to happy-face critique! Oh, yes, that will help him grow! But is it LEGAL? I'm looking into it. No response from any of you regarding my being CENSORED. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Wilkons, yours is a politician’s WITTY (haw!) non-response. Now, Esther, why would you have put The American Dissident on your list? Are you another beaver-poet shot-gunning poems out right and left in the hope of fame… and who doesn’t read guidelines? As a professor, allow me to teach you that one ought to read guidelines prior to submitting ones work. Larwar, are you what is known as a Ditto Poet?
Question: How do you, all of you, justify your likely love for Thoreau or Emerson or Solzhenitsyn or Ibsen or Jeffers, yet hate what they wrote about the cowardly herd?
Answer: You actually think you are not part of that herd. But can’t you see how you’ve all banded together on this little forum… so naturally herd-like?
Question: Why do you DISDAIN (and wish to CENSOR) someone like me, who does question and challenge the canon, all the lit clubby clubs, etc.?
Answer: Well, it’s obvious.
Hatrabbit (i.e., Mr. Anonymous), your writing is barely sensible. I don’t even know how to respond to it. Well, maybe you need to get a degree, eh? I’ve got a doctorate from a French university! Now, how will you put that one down? What kind of WIT will you ooze out? Yes, Hatrabbit, you must think you do a good witty job at ranking me out, stating I hide behind two quotes. But how asinine can one get?
Writing to all of you has been like writing to one brick wall of solidarity of incomprehension. You can’t even seem to comprehend a simple sentence, as in “let your life be a counterfriction to stop the machine.” You have to diminish it with a childish witless rank-out, thinking oh how witty you are. But poetry is more than mere high-brow wit… or at least it ought to be.
You need to diminish me because I do stand up and away from the herd, the poet herd, the academy herd, the academic herd, the consensus herd. Democracy will die with your help.
Moderator Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject:
Yes, I have been censored from the Perchik page! Isn't that wonderful! Now, ole Perchie can only be exposed to happy-face critique! Oh, yes, that will help him grow! But is it LEGAL? I'm looking into it. No response from any of you regarding my being CENSORED. Am I surprised? Not at all.
Because you weren't censored. If we had wanted to censor you, we could have simply banned you from the site. Easy as fishing. Instead, we moved your posts to a forum with a much higher traffic, where your ideas will get more play, not less. As for the posts that were lost, nobody will molest them if you simply re-post them.
Wilkons, yours is a politician’s WITTY (haw!) non-response.
No, it's a logical and factual one.
Question: How do you, all of you, justify your likely love for Thoreau or Emerson or Solzhenitsyn or Ibsen or Jeffers, yet hate what they wrote about the cowardly herd?
Huh?
Answer: You actually think you are not part of that herd. But can’t you see how you’ve all banded together on this little forum… so naturally herd-like?
Question: Why do you DISDAIN (and wish to CENSOR) someone like me, who does question and challenge the canon, all the lit clubby clubs, etc.?
Answer: Well, it’s obvious.
Again: huh? wha? Ask an real question, get an real answer.
You need to diminish me because I do stand up and away from the herd, the poet herd, the academy herd, the academic herd, the consensus herd. Democracy will die with your help.
No, we diminish you because you rant and rave and bait and attack, while showing no respect for our simple guidelines. We are within the rights given us in those guidelines in banning you already. Explain why we haven't, if we are indeed as sinister as you think
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in terms of human purposes and values. ”
—Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Last edited by G.Wilkens on Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
Moderator Stephen Bunch. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:17 pm Post subject:
Mr. Slone,
I think you'll be history here soon because of your penchant for personal attacks unrelated, as far as I can discern, to any discussion of poets and poetry. But since you raised the matter, if you're disturbed by Allen Ginsberg's proclivities and associations, I also wonder about the curious coincidence of your journal's title, American Dissident, and the National Alliance's American Dissident Voices, a radio broadcast by now defunct William Pierce and his neo-nazi organization, the National Alliance. Of course, you're free to associate with neo-nazis. That freedom is guaranteed by our Constitution. But I do weigh people's opinions and character by the company they keep. Anyway, enquiring minds want to know. It's been fun, old stick. Have a good life.
Stephen Bunch (my real name)
_________________
"I'm looking for the gold tooth in God's crooked smile." (Jim White)
Moderator Hatrabbit. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:27 pm Post subject:
Dave Rowley--google me, it's fascinating.
Or learn all about me at www.threatstotheworldasweknowit.com
_________________
"Tell me about the dream where we pull the bodies out of the lake / and dress them in warm clothes again" Richard Siken
Moderator Gary Wilkens. Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 6:45 pm Post subject:
Gary Charles Wilkens
http://www.gcwilkens.com/
_________________
"Poetry gives us knowledge. It is a knowledge of ourselves in relation to the world of experience, and to that world considered, not statistically, but in terms of human purposes and values. ”
— Cleanth Brooks and Robert Penn Warren
Enmarge [G. Tod Slone]. Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 3:06 am Post subject: CENSORSHIP AND THE POET CONFORMIST
Wilkens,
Perhaps I shall do a cartoon on you. Your paltry response to my being censored merit it! Perhaps one day you will be Lit Rogue of the month (www.theamericandissident.org/LitToon.htm). So, rejoice!
You need to examine the legislation in place. It was because I shoved that legislation under the snout of the censoring moderator, Chrissie put me back up on your website. It is senseless to try to reason with you. But the law certainly made Chrissie reasonable! Haw!
Your reasoning is purposefully fraudulent and makes no sense at all regarding my argument about being censored from the Perchik page. You are a 501 3c nonprofit organization and cannot censor on a whim and “politeness” is a whim. “Because you weren't censored. If we had wanted to censor you, we could have simply banned you from the site. Easy as fishing. Instead, we moved your posts to a forum with a much higher traffic, where your ideas will get more play, not less. As for the posts that were lost, nobody will molest them if you simply re-post them.”
Your guidelines are a sham, a transparent front put forth to enable you to CENSOR anybody who does expression a non-happy face opinion and who is IGNORANT OF THE LAW. Read my statement on it! Chrissie did and so did her bosses. YOU NEED TO REVAMP THOSE GUIDELINES IN ACCORD WITH THE FIRST AMENDMENT. Vigorous debate is far more important than your arbitrary politeness oblige. Don’t you get it? All those speech codes enacted by academic clones are being struck down in the courts, one after the other. Your code is null and void!
To call my argumentation “rant and rave and bait and attack, while showing no respect for our simple guidelines” is as unoriginal as shooting the messenger gets. It is also sadly typical of educated people who shudder before someone who does have the courage to express views not shared by the herd. My statement was a simple criticism of the rampant blandness of poets and poetry in America, Attorney Perchik, Poetaster of the Month, included. It was censored from that page.
“We are within the rights given us in those guidelines in banning you already. Explain why we haven't.” YOU KNOW DAMN WELL WHY YOU HAVEN’T BANNED ME. YOU ARE A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION SUPPORTED BY GOVERNMENT FUNDS AND THAT PROHIBITS YOU—contrary to your ignorant, self-assured and self-satisfied statement—FROM CENSORING CITIZENS DUE TO ARBITRARY DESIGNATION OF IMPOLITENESS. CAPICHE? If you had censored me in totum, I would have brought a legal case against your POETRY INSTITUTION. You will not censor me for that reason. Your bosses will not permit you to do so! And I laugh at you for thinking you can and will censor me. Shame on you, an educated man! Yeah, just call it RANT… but you haven’t the guts to censor and ban.
Why should I show YOU any RESPECT at all? You merit no respect. Your response to my statement on being censored from the Perchik page was and is pitiful.
Unlike you, I do not threaten to censor. You are much more the Nazi than I. So, Mr. Wilkons, it is time you stopped threatening to eliminate me (“you’ll be history here soon”) from your forum. If I shall be history, it will be my decision, NOT YOURS.
Did you and your buddies learn from the educational system how to divert argumentation? On Ginsberg, for example, you and they couldn’t even comprehend the point I clearly made. Is there any point in my repeating it? Probably not. But I’ll repeat: Your guidelines for politesse stipulate NO “OFFENSIVE MATERIAL” and NO “ADVERTIZEMENTS.” Whether G. was a Chancellor or not is entirely immaterial. He was a member of your org and a member of another org that promoted sex with children. But for you, that’s fine and dandy, while my putting forth an opinion IS NOT.
The repeated statement “Poetry gives us knowledge” must be a farce because it certainly didn’t give you any knowledge regarding your right to censor. You are a sad example of our educational system. Your argumentation is entirely faulty and diversionary. Here’s another example: “American Dissident, and the National Alliance's American Dissident Voices… blablabla.” There is no connection whatsoever! But isn’t it wonderful that you would connect American AND dissident with something BAD! Perhaps you need to begin a journal and call it THE AMERICAN CONFORMIST. Yes, you’d make a wonderful editor of a journal like that. POETS SHOULD NOT BE CONFORMISTS, THEY SHOULD BE DISSIDENTS! Capiche?
Clearly, you and yours are in a very weak position for you fear any hard criticism of your milieu… and for good reason.
…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….
Then Site Manager Klocek-Lim sent me an email.
From: chrissiekl
To: enmarge
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 1:53 pm
Subj: moved posts
I suggest you read the Terms of Use.
_________________
—Christine, Site Admin—
"Savour, taste, enjoy. Poetry is not made to be sucked up like a child's milkshake. . ." —Stephen Fry
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:39 pm
Subj: moved posts
I suggest you study the First Amendment... and the history of censorship! I guess one of your bosses had a quick talk with you, eh? I wrote to all of them!
Write to my email address, not to this spot if you want me to read what you write. todslone@yahoo.com
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:40 pm
Subj: moved posts
Read that email I reposted on censorship and 501 3c organisations. Read it! Then tell me what I should do. How despicable you've been, truly...
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:47 pm
Subj: moved posts
You need to also define the word "politely," which, if left undefined, is another of those words you seem to favor to support censorship. Well, at least you now know that you cannot censor me on a whim because the law forbids nonprofit organizations from doing so. I am happy I was able to teach you something today, Chrissie.
From: enmarge
To: chrissiekl
Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2007 2:54 pm
Subj: moved posts
I will still be looking into the legality of you censoring my comments from the Perchik page. Why not ask Perchik about that? It is as if you are shielding him from seeing any criticism of his work. Shame on you!
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The next day when I went to check out the forum, I found this:
Critical Information
You have been banned from this forum.
Please contact the webmaster or board administrator for more information.
CENSORED a second time... permanently